Could I translate posts in this forum into my language? Topic is solved

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Utensil
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Could I translate posts in this forum into my language?

Post by Utensil » Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:43 am

Hi Jorg,

Could I translate posts in this forum into Chinese?

I'm a Chinese student. I sense that there are too few Chinese documentations, and after I'd come to this forum, I felt here a wonderful place and I wanna translate some posts in this forum into Chinese such as some FAQ and briliantly solved problems. I wonder if it involves in copyright problems, or if none, what I should do before I translate to respect the authors' efforts.

Sorry to bother you with this, I really have shallow exprience foruming abroad. Hope I place the post in the correct subforum. :)

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Post by tierra » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:15 am

Maybe it's possible to open up sub-forums here for other languages. I do notice that there's a lot of interest in wxWidgets from Chinese. Another site had started a forum for French at one point, I don't know how that went. But I do think it would just be best if it was all here.

Jorg, I know you expressed at one point that foreign language forums attract too little of traffic to stay alive, or help, but it certainly doesn't help if there isn't any outlet at all, and you don't really give it a chance. The wxdevelop.com site was the French attempt iirc, and it looks like it is in fact dead now, but these forums aren't going anywhere, and it's probably the first place everyone looks, so it couldn't hurt to have them open even if they don't see many posts for the first few months. Obviously, only start each of them as requested, so maybe only French and Chinese to start.

I've given some thought myself on how the wxWiki can offer the same content in other languages, and have been planning on implementing it at some point, though it's a little harder, especially with no "community" to ask for translators (i.e. no registration required to edit, and no real place to actively discuss). Also, policies need to be in place for how other language pages are kept up to date with the main English page edits.

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Post by Jorg » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:31 am

There are approx 47 languages in the world, making only a fraction available as sub forums would really clutter the whole forum. Ofcourse I am willing to think about it, but what exactly do you suggest as layout? A specialized forum per sub forum like

C++ Development
C++ Development Chinese
C++ Development French
C++ Development ....
General Development
General Development Chinese
General Development French
General Development ...

As you can see this is not really useful. Since there is no way to really specialize it, all I can think of is one forum where all topics of wxWidgets are allowed, in the language the original poster feels comfortable. But then again, how to discriminate all the flavors of a language?

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Post by Utensil » Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:59 pm

Thanx for replying...

Well, I performed a search before posting this question, and found out few of the topics that mentioned "translate" weren't talking about wxLocale.....

I agree with tierra in that this forum seems lack of the attention to the translation of man, doc, Wiki in other languages. And i really appriciate tierra for suggesting an subforum for Chinese developers.

I sense no need to devide forums into subforums for different languages, in that i'm with Jorg. So far as I read, I didn't see Jorg agreed in deviding-forum suggestions, :wink:

The documentation work of wxWidgets in English are far from perfect itself. I think this is really an obstruction to the popularization of wx.

The translation work is being done in many other places by other unofficial organizations or individual volenteers. They might have their own sites, blogs, wikis, forums in their own language. As for me in China, I absorbed most of the knowledge about wx from blogs listed in the result of the search engine, I was greatly help by the complete Chinese version of Cross-Platform GUI Programming with wxWidgets translated by a Wikior, and I enjoyed the journey in the English version of wxWidgets 2.8.6: A portable C++ and Phython GUI toolkit during programming. This is my path, I think it might be typical in China.

My point is that it's not possible for this forum to concern about every language, but about an airview of the whole work. It might be possible to open a new forum that people from different countries can share their translating progress there. At least, this could be a poll.

BTW, it seems that my question itself hasn't been answered yet. Obeying the Tao of asking questions, I don't expect an rapid answer :)

Regards,

Utensil Candel
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Post by Jorg » Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:56 pm

If that would be supported, it would be a nice idea yes. What also might be possible in the future is marking your post for a specific language (one or more). Then when people enable "chinese" in their profile, those posts are shown as well. If they disable chinese, they won't be shown for non chinese posters. This might work for multiple languages as I can speak English, Dutch and a bit of German, I could check those three languages and people can still post in their native language. The problem however is that when people expect to be helped in their native language and not many people monitor that language, it might look as they are ignored (basically they are ignored because nodody monitors that language).

So what I am wondering is the effort really worth this. Maybe upCASE and me can find a nice mod or make one ourselves but it will require some work.

As for translating existing posts by volunteers, I don't see that happening and the engine of the forum is not really set up for that.

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Post by tierra » Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:10 pm

Jorg wrote:There are approx 47 languages in the world
Actually, ISO 639-1 identifies 136 major world languages, and ISO-639-3 lists over 7,000 language codes for various regional dialects and other aspects. But I specifically already mentioned that they would be added on a request basis, and if you really want more strict policies for it, you could lay down rules like how many posts per month need to be posted in those forums for them to stay. The wx.NET subforum is probably less active than a French or Chinese forum would be if they were here.
Jorg wrote:C++ Development
C++ Development Chinese
C++ Development French
C++ Development ....
General Development
General Development Chinese
General Development French
General Development ...
This isn't at all what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that it be done just like every other forum that offers foreign language subforums. They start out with a single subforum, and if they grow beyond the usefulness of one subforum, it can be split into two from there. For example, here's what I'm suggesting based on the current layout:

Code: Select all

About The Forum
- Forum Announcements
- General Forum Issues
wxWidgets Programming Forums
- C++ Development
- Component Writing
- Compiler / Linking / IDE Related
- Platform Related Issues
wxWidgets Specialized Forums
- wxDev-C++
- wx.NET
- The Code Dump
- wxCode
General Forums
- General Development
- Announcements and Discoveries
- Open Discussion
International Forums
- Chinese
- French
Several forums handle it just like this...

The Audacity forums are 1/2 the size with an active French forum. The Gentoo forums are 10 times our size, with 12 major language subforums. Some forums handle it based on continent or country like the PayPal developer forums. The Xbox forums have a ridiculous amount of subforums with one per game as well as multiple split forums for each major language/region, but that doesn't seem to discourage posts.

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Post by upCASE » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:46 am

Hi!
As I wasn't online during the weekend I didn't catch this post, so forgive me that I didn't post my 2 cents earlier :)

From what I can see this forums is indeed use by many people who don't speak english as their first language. I suppose most users here are from the US, germany, france, china, india and russia. There are many posts that suggest that the people posting it are not very fluent in english or use some online translation services.

The general idea of having english as the language of choice here was that information would be accessible to all users. Having postings in german for example, which is my native language, wouldn't allow others to read and understand it, so solutions might simply be "lost", as no one else could understand or even find them.

Still, as I think that there is an increase of non-english users here, I suppose would should discuss and reconsider this decision.

IMHO translating posts might be useful for the FAQ and the board rules. Translating all sorts of posts is too much work.
The idea of having special sub forums is ok with me, but I think we should have Mods for this forums who are able to understand the languages. These Mods should decide whether a posting should be translated, or at least post a notice about valuable code snippets etc. What I don't want to see is a split in the forum.

About the mod Jorg mentioned: I'm not sure if such a thing exists yet and I feel like this might be a lot of work to do. Having sub forums would be easier and faster to do, under the condition that we find the Mods for them as stated above.
Another mod idea that pops up in my mind is to have a simple "translate" button that would do an online translation. Sure these aren't very good, but one could at least try to understand a posting.

I guess having forums for chinese, indian, french and maybe russian might be a way of attracting more users to the forum and have a "centralized" resource. At least we could decide to try this for let's say half a year and see how it works out.

So in the end I'd say: If we find the Mods for these forums, let's try.
I'd be happy to know what the other Mods think of this.
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Post by Auria » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:07 pm

I think maybe interesting posts could be translated and introduced into the wiki - while searching the forum is a good way to find info, it's even better to have it organised somehow

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Post by NinjaNL » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:05 pm

If I may be allowed my two (euro) cents worth.

Firstly I am in principle OK with several sub forums based on language, as tierra suggested, simply a series of "International Forums". Mods should be found who are "native" speakers to mod those forums. I suggest native speakers, since although I speak Dutch (my mother tongue is English) and could mod a dutch forum, some things might be lost in my misunderstanding a nuance of the language (don't get me started on subtitles) so native speakers wouldn't have this problem.

Secondly, Things such as the FAQ's and Forum rules should be translated initially BEFORE the creation of the international forum. This serves two purposes. Firstly, it means that the "important" information is present for the international forum when it goes live, secondly it measures the amount of "push" the forum has (If I want a french forum, then I had better make damn sure that the faq's and rules are translated, if for no other reason than to show my willingness to support the forum I want created)

Thirdly, it would be prudent if someone (anybody but my good self :D ) browsed the forums and sought out those nuggets of information that are buried here and add them to the faq's (before translation). As an addendum to this, it would make sense if the initial translator of the faq/rules "commited" to supporting the translation in the future, i.e. when something is added to the faq, those commited to the translation would receive an email with the new content for their translation and addition to "their" faq.

Fourthly, (is fourthly actually a word?) I believe that the international forums should have a warning that the traffic for these forums would be very low and as such their questions might not be answered. We already get members bumping unanswered posts hoping to get them noticed, should I see that a chinese forum has a thread with 20 messages in and 19 are just bumps wouldn't do too much for my delicate state of mind on a caffeine free day)

Lastly (that is a word) would it be possible to have the forums "opt in"? When I do a "view new posts since last visit" I would like to see English and Dutch forum messages, but not french chinese japanese russian etc. The forums should be visible from the front page, so I could browse to them, but only those languages I want to read should be presented when I do a view new posts.

Should the international forums be supported, could we have a section in our profile which automatically selects the forum languages we are interested in? Then when we do a search I would (for example) search by default English and Dutch forums, and be presented with options for other supported languages, but I would specifically have to select these languages to include them in my search.
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Post by Jorg » Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:20 pm

Hi all,

I am a bit hesitant making a lot of specialized forums. You will get scrolling RSI because it can explode if you get a shadow forum for every sub forum.

I would suggest however something like;

..

General Forums
General Development
Announchements
Open Discussion

International Forums
wxWidgets Chinese
wxWidgets French
wxWidgets Dutch
..
Lastly (that is a word) would it be possible to have the forums "opt in"? When I do a "view new posts since last visit" I would like to see English and Dutch forum messages, but not french chinese japanese russian etc. The forums should be visible from the front page, so I could browse to them, but only those languages I want to read should be presented when I do a view new posts.
That's what I meant by selecting in your profile which languages you would like to see.

Every forum can have the Rules and Info translated to that language as a sticky. Ofcourse we need a moderator per forum as international forums can mention anything and we would not know ;-)

edit: Tierra sorry that this seems to be a duplicate of your post, I totally missed yours where we are basically suggesting the same thing :-)

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Post by Utensil » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:55 am

Hi all!

My original thought about translation was about translating posts out of this forum, so i posted this question. Far better than I expected, this question has lead to a discussion about
1) making this forum have multi-language versions of the FAQ and forum rules

2) and even making this forum allow members to post and view in the language they know (and customizable 8) ).
I'm really happy about it.

IMHO, 2) is more like a long-term plan, and it needs our great efforts and more dissusions to make it work as we expected, last but not least, we dont't need it on edge.

On the other hand, 1) is something we can start immediately and we are really in need of it.

Somebody might say that people who doesnt read English won't come here, but native language guides will really make here more like a home and make freshman easier to find their position.

Take myself as the example, I'm confused by how to choose the best answer to be "Accept" and which ones to be "Assist", and I don't know how many times can i reward someone "Assist" by "Assist" his different posts. When i wanted to figure it out by reading the post wxAward System FAQ, I feel lost in the ocean of English, my patience only took me to the end of the FAQ and disgarded all the comments. If there is a Chinese version, that will feel much better for me, at least I can check whether this question is mentioned in the FAQ quickly, and use my patience on the English comments.

I suggest that we open ONE category International Forums that has ONE forum General Issues(or some other name) FOR NOW and we start translating FAQ and Forum Rules into major languages in there and add links to the corresponding FAQ or Forum Rules. And we can discuss later work in there too when we wanna step into 2).



EDIT:

I wonder if this forum supports UTF-8 or other universal coding, so I choose some languages and show them here. Does everyone see what i see?
English: Thank you and we're sorry for the inconvenience!
Chinese(Simplified): 谢谢, 我们对您遇到的不便表示抱歉!
Chinese(Traditional): 謝謝, 我們對您遇到的不便表示抱歉!
French: Merci et d
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Post by NinjaNL » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:47 am

[quote="Utensil"]

[quote]English: Thank you and we're sorry for the inconvenience!
Chinese(Simplified): 谢谢, 我们对您遇到的不便表示抱歉!
Chinese(Traditional): 謝謝, 我們對您遇到的不便表示抱歉!
French: Merci et d
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Post by Utensil » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:34 am

Sorry for keeping this question unclosed, but since I don't sense a conlusive answer or decision, I don't know how to "Accept".....Are the new forums we discussed already in progress or in schedule? I'm a little confused...

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Utensil Candel
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Post by Jorg » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:07 am

Sorry for the long wait. We were a bit inconclusive about how to approach this. But I guess the solution is to make several forums. As for the weird characters I do not know how to solve this. I gues it is a browser specific character set that people are missing, I do now know if phpBB is well suited for international use, but we can put it to the test..

Is there any indication which languages are needed? I can choose some but rather have a solid base for the most needed languages.

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Post by Utensil » Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:07 pm

Is there any indication which languages are needed? I can choose some but rather have a solid base for the most needed languages.
The NEED is something that little i can't say, my point can't represent the general need by Chinese or other forum members...That's the difficult part...And that's why I suggested one new forum, since it could be an experiment.
As for the weird characters I do not know how to solve this. I gues it is a browser specific character set that people are missing, I do now know if phpBB is well suited for international use, but we can put it to the test...
Weird character? I see every language in the way it should be. Maybe because my system is able to show them and yours can't-----and this is the point, say, the system of the end user of Chinese posts will be able to read Chinese for certain, and you, who's not in need of Chinese posts, won't need to be able to display them correctly. As I understand, every topic in other language should have a English paragraph indicats what the weird charaters are about.

Regards,

Utensil Candel
In fascination of creating worlds by words, and in pursuit of words behind the world.

On Github: http://utensil.github.com
Technical Blog in Chinese: http://utensil.iteye.com/

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