Should MDI be implemented on Linux?
Should MDI be implemented on Linux?
I really feel (and I'm sure that many others feel the same way) that MDI is here to stay, and that it's good to have. Microsoft has a real advantage there. It's nice to be able to look at two windows in the same program at the same time.
What do you people think - should/could someone implement MDI with wxWidgets for Linux? I think it would be great if someone did...
What do you people think - should/could someone implement MDI with wxWidgets for Linux? I think it would be great if someone did...
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Re: Should MDI be implemented on Linux?
MDI is here to leave. Microsoft itself has deprecated it (yet it sort-of uses it still).chadman wrote:I really feel (and I'm sure that many others feel the same way) that MDI is here to stay, and that it's good to have. Microsoft has a real advantage there. It's nice to be able to look at two windows in the same program at the same time.
MDI as in Mac is a different thing, and a good thing. It doesn't enforce document windows to be inside a parent frame, and that's good.
Good luck with that. I tried it a bit on the X11 level, without much success.chadman wrote:What do you people think - should/could someone implement MDI with wxWidgets for Linux? I think it would be great if someone did...
Here I have in mind having frames inside another frame.
Mac alike MDI would of course be quite possible.
But wx's MDI framework is quite M$ MDI centric iirc.
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I disagree, and actually think that wxWidgets should implement quite the opposite by making tabbed document interface - the wxGTK way - a cross-platform MDI replacement standard also for wxMSW. Taking wxMDIBook a step further, now that would be something nice...
Just my 0,02 E...
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Two toplevel windows.chadman wrote:But what if you want to see two documents at once in your program?
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Hi!
Quite suprisingly when thinking about it, I voted yes.
Even if MS abandoned MDI a while ago (although they're not quite strict when enforcing it), I think that it might be quite usefull on Linux.
The problem would be which approach would be better, Mac or Windows. I suppose the Windows approach of having a parent window that "embeds" other child windows would be more fitting, as the general layout of windows on Linux (X11 and GTK) is quite comparable to the Windows approach. Mac does things in a different way because it's standard and simply looks better on that platform. I had an app once that used the Mac approach on Windows and it looked like s**t and wasn't usable. To be honest: While on the Mac this gives me no problem, I get confused if I don't have a parent window on Windows.
I like having it like this:
Mac -> Toolwindows are floating, documents are "toplevel" windows, the menubar is the standard one.
Windows -> Parent window with docked or floating toolwindows, documents are childs of the parent window. The parent has its own menubar.
I'm a bit selfish here as I'd like MDI for Linux for wxRapid
Quite suprisingly when thinking about it, I voted yes.
Even if MS abandoned MDI a while ago (although they're not quite strict when enforcing it), I think that it might be quite usefull on Linux.
The problem would be which approach would be better, Mac or Windows. I suppose the Windows approach of having a parent window that "embeds" other child windows would be more fitting, as the general layout of windows on Linux (X11 and GTK) is quite comparable to the Windows approach. Mac does things in a different way because it's standard and simply looks better on that platform. I had an app once that used the Mac approach on Windows and it looked like s**t and wasn't usable. To be honest: While on the Mac this gives me no problem, I get confused if I don't have a parent window on Windows.
I like having it like this:
Mac -> Toolwindows are floating, documents are "toplevel" windows, the menubar is the standard one.
Windows -> Parent window with docked or floating toolwindows, documents are childs of the parent window. The parent has its own menubar.
I'm a bit selfish here as I'd like MDI for Linux for wxRapid
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That's why you have your taskbar group things, and your minimizing capabilities and such.chadman wrote:But see, then you have windows just floating around your desktop, and a whole bunch of buttons on your taskbar.
Good luck instructing X11 with ICCCM/EWMH to have a toplevel inside another. If you succeed, you can let me know and I might do the restupCASE wrote:I suppose the Windows approach of having a parent window that "embeds" other child windows would be more fitting, as the general layout of windows on Linux (X11 and GTK) is quite comparable to the Windows approach.
I look at it currently as being impossible (for a good reason).
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Well doesn't Linux already use some MDI? How does it work right now and why can't there be a wrapper for this in wxWidgets?
I do respect your opinions and I think you guys have great ideas, but I'd like you to have a look at my program at http://aletheia.sourceforge.net and describe to me how it would be with your MDI idea in place. If I did it the way you described, when the user opens a new window, should it open a completely new top-level window that is identical to the original main window (menubar, toolbar and all)? Or, should it just open a simple window just containing a text box with no menubar or toolbar?
I do respect your opinions and I think you guys have great ideas, but I'd like you to have a look at my program at http://aletheia.sourceforge.net and describe to me how it would be with your MDI idea in place. If I did it the way you described, when the user opens a new window, should it open a completely new top-level window that is identical to the original main window (menubar, toolbar and all)? Or, should it just open a simple window just containing a text box with no menubar or toolbar?
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Some use tabbed interface, others:chadman wrote:Well doesn't Linux already use some MDI? How does it work right now and why can't there be a wrapper for this in wxWidgets?
http://doc.trolltech.com/3.3/qworkspace.html#details
http://www.x.org/contrib/widgets/motif/MDI-1.0.1-README
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Interesting. I wonder how do they work internally. The window manager support and so on didn't really work for me... I'll take a look hopefully soon.
Thanks for the link!
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Developer of wxGTK;
gtk+ port maintainer of OMGUI - http://www.omgui.org/
OS's: Gentoo Linux, WinXP; WX: CVS HEAD
Project Manager of wxMUD - http://wxmud.sf.net/
Developer of wxGTK;
gtk+ port maintainer of OMGUI - http://www.omgui.org/
MDI is here to leave. Microsoft itself has deprecated it (yet it sort-of uses it still).
MDI as in Mac is a different thing, and a good thing. It doesn't enforce document windows to be inside a parent frame, and that's good.
I find the MS MDI approach ideal. It is one of the reasons I would never switch to GIMP in favour of Photoshop. Having multiple documents open at the same time and easily hiding them all when you minimize the parent window is invaluable.
I have had some frightening experiences of the Mac approach also. It is useless. just a few windows open and the desktop is totally cluttered.
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Consider the case of dragging and dropping something from one window to another. Example the shareware program VTrain where you can drag a flashcard from one card pack to another. It uses an MDI interface in Windows. You can see an animated screen shot here under An advanced editor
This would a bit harder to pull off in a tabbed interface. How exactly would you drag data from one tab and drop it on another? Perhaps you could drag the data over the destination tab, then drop after the contents of the tab appears. This would be similar to dragging files to programs minimized on the Windows taskbar, but doing the same with tabs might be hard for the user to discover without reading the help file.
Or imagine an archiving program like Winzip, where each window is a different zip file. You have the same issue, it's easy to drag and drop to another Explorer-like window, but not as clear what to do if each window has to be on a tab.
This would a bit harder to pull off in a tabbed interface. How exactly would you drag data from one tab and drop it on another? Perhaps you could drag the data over the destination tab, then drop after the contents of the tab appears. This would be similar to dragging files to programs minimized on the Windows taskbar, but doing the same with tabs might be hard for the user to discover without reading the help file.
Or imagine an archiving program like Winzip, where each window is a different zip file. You have the same issue, it's easy to drag and drop to another Explorer-like window, but not as clear what to do if each window has to be on a tab.
I don't like the gimp UI also.geon wrote: I find the MS MDI approach ideal. It is one of the reasons I would never switch to GIMP in favour of Photoshop. Having multiple documents open at the same time and easily hiding them all when you minimize the parent window is invaluable.
Gimps interface is terrible, yes, but look at other GTK applications: They use tabs. Gimp don't uses tabs which is very confusing (--if you have gimp openend, with some pics, look at your taskbar---???)
wxWidgets is nice